Finance Unpacked: Closing the Advice Gap with Gareth Shears & Shane Hyland
Join your hosts, Shane Hyland and Gareth Shears, on "Finance Unpacked: Closing the Advice Gap", a podcast dedicated to demystifying the complex world of personal finance. Each week, Shane and Gareth delve into critical topics ranging from budgeting basics and saving strategies to smart investments and retirement planning.
Whether you're a financial novice looking to build a solid foundation or a seasoned saver searching for advanced tips, this show brings you practical, actionable advice, and the latest insights from the world of finance. Our mission is to bridge the growing advice gap, ensuring that everyone—regardless of their financial background—has access to the knowledge they need to achieve financial independence.
Tune in to "Finance Unpacked" as we explore the ins and outs of managing your money effectively, answer listener questions, and bring in expert guests to share their secrets on thriving in today's economic environment. Don't let the advice gap hold you back—start mastering your financial destiny today with Shane and Gareth.
Finance Unpacked: Closing the Advice Gap with Gareth Shears & Shane Hyland
Thriving Amidst Challenges: The Remarkable Business Pivot of Cleverchefs and Epic Caterers with CEO, Nick Collins
Ever wondered how a business can pivot and flourish despite a global pandemic? Our guest, Nick Collins, CEO of Cleverchefs and Epic Caterers, shows us exactly how it's done. From starting with a month's pay to running a business with over 600 staff members, Nick's journey is an inspiring tale of consistency, adaptability, and sheer determination.
Nick reveals how his catering business faced the biggest challenge when COVID hit. But did it stop him? No. Instead, he transformed it into an opportunity to create a new division in his business that not only increased sales but clinched several contracts. His nimble adaptability allowed his business to thrive, even as he and his team delivered over 800 orders on VE day. Prepare to be amazed by his remarkable story of resilience and innovation.
But running a successful business isn't just about the numbers. It's also about the balance between work and personal life. Listen in as Nick shares valuable insights on time management and the importance of taking breaks. He talks candidly about his ambitious goal to build a £50 million pound company in the next four years. With an unwavering focus on continual learning and development, Nick Collins' intriguing journey in the hospitality industry is a testament to his passion and dedication. Join us for an engrossing conversation that promises a wealth of insights for business owners and food enthusiasts alike.
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On today's exciting episode, we have the founder and CEO of Cleversheps and Epic Caters, nick Collins. His business over the last eight years has grown from strength to strength, with over 600 staff and a multi-million pound turnover business. He talks about his journey and some of the ups and downs of running a business that we all know about. This was a great chat with Nick, so sit back and enjoy the episode and don't forget to follow and leave us a review, as this helps us grow and reach more people. We asked you the morning how are we Good morning. How are you Good, nick? You well, very good. Thank you, short hop for you from the office.
Speaker 2:I expected here, just round the corner, just in the centre of town.
Speaker 3:It's nice having people in the office.
Speaker 1:We looked at the centre of town, didn't we? The parking was a big thing for us.
Speaker 2:We're going to be moving next year. It's a bit of a short term thing. So instead of moving to town, how?
Speaker 3:long is that listening, is it?
Speaker 1:Instead of moving to town, we move 50 yards. That's easy then, basically as a crow flies.
Speaker 3:We'll talk about that later. It was not easy.
Speaker 1:We'll talk about that later. So I guess just the list is kind of no Bit of an intro into you. Give us a rundown who you are, what you do. We're all started.
Speaker 2:I'm the founder and CEO of Clevesheps Group, which has two brands in the hospitality world. We've got Clevesheps, which is a contract caterer, has contracts with workplaces, education and leisure facilities all across pretty much the UK. It's got about 90 sites. And then we've got Epic Caterers, which is our wedding and event brand. We do about six to seven hundred events and weddings a year, private dinners and really high-end sort of luxury event catering.
Speaker 3:Six hundred.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've got a really great team, is that?
Speaker 3:condensed into a certain period in the calendar year, is there more in June to July, august and there is in February.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It does peak in the summer months, as you'd expect, but over the years a lot in midweek, a lot in the winter, now making a thing of winter weddings.
Speaker 1:You've seen a lot more midweek. I went to a Monday wedding recently. I've done some Wednesday ones, Thursdays, but I actually did a Monday one. It was great actually. It was kind of like.
Speaker 2:If you booked a time off work, why not? Once you're in a wedding, it can be any day.
Speaker 3:I always like to stay the night as well, yeah take a couple of days off Does it make it easier as a business person then to have that segmented out. So rather than having all of the work done every Friday, saturday, sunday in August, if you're getting a Tuesday wedding in February, at least you know staff wise and all that there is continuity and it's easier to manage that way than all bulked into a certain shorter time period.
Speaker 2:There's pros and cons to it. It's nice to spread it out over the year, definitely, but then you don't get some of the staff that you might get easier to get staff on a weekend, usually in college or uni or working in the week and then you think that spreading out maybe 10, 12 weddings over a week might be a better idea, but actually you need the team in the kitchen prepping it. So there's pros and cons to each way, really. But it's good that we've got a consistent sort of business across the year. The key to our success in that has been consistency with our team on the ground. Epic Katers is called Epic Katers because our team are just epic. What they do is unbelievable how they produce the high-end food they do consistently.
Speaker 3:Do you get what they call the Bridesillers? Is there strange requests every now and again?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, I miss I do the part of my job. We've been going about eight years now. I do miss actually handling the Brides and Grooms myself. It's funny we were actually talking about it yesterday. We had a bit of a senior team meeting in the Epic HQ and we used to say we could write down what Brides and Grooms are going to say before they come in the building for our first consultation, because they all say the same thing. But yeah, you do get the odd view that you want something. But that's what we do, that's what we were about making dreams happen really and making it different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's because you tailor it to what someone wants.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's got to be. When I started doing the Weddings of Events, that was the starting block for us and that was the rub. Really. It's your biggest day After a house, is probably the most you're going to spend on any day or anything, and it's emotional. They've both even the Grooms. They've dreamed of this day for a long time and that's very rare. There's not many days you dream of having. Not everyone's like that, some is just a bit of a day, but some people you can see in their eyes this is the day, their hopes and dreams, what they wanted it to be. So to live up to that is incredibly difficult, but we do it time and time again. But to deliver someone when the wedding's over and you look at them and they've had a few to drink or they're having a laugh and they're with all their dear ones, there's nothing.
Speaker 1:There's no better feeling Amazing and the food plays a huge part in a wedding, doesn't it? Definitely? Now, absolutely, it's the buffet I look forward to with the evening. Usually, what I find is the actual main meals, a little bit small on size for my liking, but the buffies where I make my money back, yeah, no, that's fair point and that's kind of like where you find me in the front of the queue you're normally. If I'm not the front of queue, there's usually something wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, it's got to be an eating experience. It's a long day, isn't it? You know you need to have some highlights.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, it's a kind of big thing. So eight years ago you started the business yeah, we're. I guess we did all start prior to that and you know, I guess, the love of food and cooking and I assume you've been in the catering industry for a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so being a chef, well, since I was 16. So yeah, like 24 years now or something. So yeah, I'd been a chef for a long time in some great places, which in France, on some yachts, london Michelin Star Kitchens and the contract catering world itself and weddings and events. And yeah, just just I've been on Mars Chef the professionals and real foodie, real, you know, really passionate about creative foods, making it look good, making it taste good.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, never really had a massive desire to sort of go out on my own. If I'm honest, I think every chef's got that burning desire to sort of open a restaurant and I haven't had that all my career. I wanted to sort of I'd rather have been at the top of a big company and sort of take the lead there as a chef and use my food there. But yeah, and a situation happened, you know, an opportunity arose and I just grabbed it, really started, you know, literally with a month's pay for my previous job, no loans, no, nothing, wow, and yeah, just a few luck along the way, right place, right time and hard work.
Speaker 3:No, as a business, as a business owner, there's no such thing as luck. It's it's predominantly hard work. I don't think luck.
Speaker 2:How do you work the luck you get? Yeah, for like I think, yeah, I think I think a lot of people work hard, yeah, and like they don't make the break. I think, yeah, you've got to work hard, there's got to be, there's got to be. I was talking about the other day. It's like a cauldron. You've got to have quite a lot of things in there, yes, but I'm quite conscious. Yeah, you know, I'm good at what I do and I'm passionate and I'm hardworking. So they're definitely what you need to succeed in any business.
Speaker 2:But I know definitely there's snippets along the way where I've either met the right person or had the right break. That you know, if I hadn't been in that position that time or end up being that place, I might not be where I am now. So I always hold that. I always try and stay humble with it, because you know, I'm really, really proud of what we got. Yeah, sometimes you get a bit of imposter syndrome. You like, hang on a minute, what might do? What is what? Have I grown in, grown this company too? But, um, yeah, you've got to sometimes sit back and go yeah, it's good, I'm proud of it. And then people you know take a notice of us.
Speaker 3:That's interesting, the imposter syndrome, because I think a lot of people want to admit that Maybe they're starting to do that. But is there times when you go you know you have to?
Speaker 2:take a step back, and Massively. I mean. Clarice has been, you know, we were a local catering company doing well, growing really well from 2015 till COVID. So, yeah, doing quite well. Um, before COVID, we managed to know about just under 3 million. It was successful. It was good Um, and we were competing against local businesses, local caterers, and you know, doing well against them.
Speaker 2:Um, the pivot has been, you know, we got through COVID, which is another story on its own, obviously. Um, you know, by doing some pivoting online, I'm very lucky that I create all my own website so I could just change at the drop of a hat Um, create a shop, create a. You know, do little things like that. Um, we had a call once from um, the owners of um, well, the Wix headquarters in Tel Aviv. I thought it was a bit of a one of them fake calls and they're like we love the shop you've set up over COVID, can we come and do a film on you? So, yeah, so like they sent, because there was no films going on in COVID, they sent a 15 man crew, like film crew from like London and you know it's a video we can't really use. It's all about Wix payments and how fantastic it is, but it was like an amazingly shot film and it was like two day shooting.
Speaker 2:Um, so little things like that. You know lovely little nuggets. But um yeah, coming out of COVID, I decided to. It gave me a real opportunity. As business owners we are, we all have the ideas, we all have the uh, the things we want to do. But when you're in the business, it's hard to pause and stop and get that done.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. Covid, of course, terrible for business and you know, but what it gave me the opportunity to do is go right, okay, we're going to do that, but actually I can take myself away for two weeks and create this new arm to the business that I wanted to do. So we were always called clever chefs, but we, um, I wanted to put clever chefs into the contract catering world, where it served me well as a in my career. It's put me through. I've been to culinary Olympics, I've been to, you know, done a lot of things.
Speaker 2:Contract catering world is an undervalued commodity, really, and a thing because, you know, everyone just thinks of restaurants and hotels and um, so I wanted to start it and it was the perfect opportunity, really perfect timing, because I knew that the big, uh, you know, equity owned caterers turning over 100 billion, you know, 100 million um in this world were going and upsetting a lot of clients because, you know, renegotiating deals with COVID because they, you know. So it needed that. I think it needs that little independent personal approach and um, yeah, I built a little team around me and we went to market and I took on um, a guy in the middle of COVID where everyone else was being made redundant and I just took a punt at it and, um, we, yeah, we went to market with it and you know, in the last uh, two and a half years, we've increased the revenue well sales revenue by 10.5 million.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 2:Um, we've won 90 contracts and we've and you say in a pinch, remember, that's right, sorry, waffle it on, but um, we are now up against and, like you know, going into sales arenas and and, and looked at as a, as an established caterer by these really big caterers. Um, so, yeah, that's the moment I've sort of actually has pinched me, moments Like I can't believe I'm actually, uh, you know, alongside them. Obviously, we're not as big as them, but we do as good a job.
Speaker 3:Can I ask there, cause you come out this tunnel and we don't like using the word but you've mentioned a few times Can we go back into the C word of COVID and check out? You know, especially for your Profession.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:How did you feel? What did you do? What happened? You know what? What was it? The Friday? Was it, or was it March, the 20th 20th of March and then we closed down March 16th.
Speaker 2:For me, yeah, yeah, it was like I think you try and bury these feelings, because it was.
Speaker 3:It was a PTSD. Now we're bringing this back. It's a good job. You're sitting on a sofa, do you?
Speaker 2:know what, like, I think if I had any advice for new business owners, you know, this is you've got to pivot. I know that's a bit of a cliche word, but it's how you react to situations in business is what makes you great. And I'm not, I'm the last to back myself and I'm not here sat with a big EU at all. But yeah, we were, on an absolute, you know, going gun hoe, great weddings, award after award after award. And then this coming, you know, a few few of my staff were like, oh Nick, this, you know this, this might, like you know, they say in this could do something to weddings. Like who'd have ever thought, no, I don't be silly, I'd be fine and blow over. And then, like you know, a couple of venues on a phone, a couple of venue owners phoned me and started chatting a bit and I started to sit up a little bit. I was like, okay, you know, you just can't comprehend it, can't you? You know you couldn't.
Speaker 1:That was the thing, wasn't it? You literally it just. I'm not going to say that, cal the pace, didn't it? I mean?
Speaker 2:yeah, and then yeah, so we got that called. Say that you know we are now allowed not allowed to do weddings March the 16th and it was just like unbelievable. So, yeah, I mean you know we had 520 weddings on our books, we had a conference centers around the country doing stuff. We had so many things just cancel. I think the saving grace for us was like our brides were at a good level where, you know, they knew the venue owners worked with us really well and we postponed weddings and give them new dates. We only had about six cancellations which could have gone badly. You know, if they'd have all canceled, I mean I wouldn't be sat here. Yeah, running a business now, that's for sure. So I mean it's all then brides and grooms that believed in us and looked at the bigger picture and some canceled two, three times, some four pushed it down the line. So when I say luck, that's what I mean about luck in business.
Speaker 2:If the luck's on the side venue owners being really, really considerate for their own sake as well, but working together and bride and grooms actually going wow, as a business, that's an impact for them. So, yeah, that was two weeks and for the first two weeks, yeah, I was at home, crazy like doing what everyone's doing sculling around, looking for food, you know, like something out of a cave days. But yeah, I'm not one to sit at home. So, like one week at home, I was climbing the walls so realized I could just do this online delivery. So I was one of the first, for sure, to start these online, not before delivering all that, but as a caterer, getting afternoon tea boxes and yeah. So what was the? What were you?
Speaker 1:starting with afternoon tea and.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we come up with so many creative things. So afternoon tea boxes start, and we had. So I thought, right, well, I'll just do this. Everyone was furloughed and I printed off. I set it up on the website and it looked fantastic and my phone was pinging every time we got on order and I printed off the 70 orders we had and I went in and like you don't think actually how much 70 bits of paper looks like when you're printing the orders. So I tried to look at them, put them all out on the floor, and I phoned my colleague, rox and I said I think you better come in and help me because this we got a logistically. You know we got seven or eight vans so I thought we could deliver these, but logistically it sounds like a nightmare. So I was a bit like, oh, what have we done? And then VE Day was the next week, I think I think it was and I got 800 orders.
Speaker 1:Wow, because everyone's at home and I just go.
Speaker 2:No, that looks good on Facebook Bang. I bought it by that.
Speaker 1:And that's what was happening because, like, we did a lot of that. Like you know, I think we ordered like one of those I think might be beefy boys burgers, or something like that. The whole thing came with the potato. That's it and like literally everything was bizarre and they were some of those things with bonkers prices as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, yeah, we did, we were delivering it. Luckily we had a contract with Adnall and actually we were in one of their main call centers in town, so they would just phone us out and go hi, can you deliver 300 afternoon teas for us? You're like, yeah, all right. So, logistically different, I found myself as a delivery driver in the middle of COVID, like you know, driving a van dropping off doors.
Speaker 1:It's nice to be on a boat, though, really, when everyone else was there it was fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was tough days when, like I mean it was one of my first weeks when I was like I googled how many packages Amazon deliver a day for a driver and it was like 90 or something. So I was like I'm a bit quicker than that and I was like so I took on 110 and we just yeah, we missed a few deliveries towards the end of the day, but you know, that was our first learning curve really. But yeah, we had every box you could imagine Bloke boxes for Dad's day, mother's day. We even done about 400 Christmas dinners at Christmas in December. Wow, so it was fun.
Speaker 3:It's a different way of working. I'm originally from the little village in the west of Ireland and it's about 3000 people, and one of my friends has set up a bike shop many years ago and he got into before it even became a big thing online retail for bikes and when we were allowed to travel again, when you said that, he thought when COVID kicked in he'd be dead and all of a sudden he went up to the shop and there was just bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Loads of the bike. People like you couldn't get a bike Exactly.
Speaker 3:Loads of ordering stuff from America. Wow, and he showed me his warehouse and it was X amount of feet high and he had seven different storage units for the bikes. He said they weren't even coming in that quickly. There was a DPD, were arriving at four Trucks every day. They were taking the sticker off and they were basically putting another sticker back on.
Speaker 3:Yeah and that's how quick it was. And you said, and our biggest Supplier, and everything was coming from America and then he was sending it back to America, yeah, and making profit on that. But he said the bike trade, just, he said he was doing 20-hour days in the bike shop for about four months and he said never again. He said he nearly killed me, said good money, said money became irrelevant. I made so much money that it was, it wasn't important. I've suffered physically, mentally, emotionally, yeah, and a bit like you said that the orders just spiraled out of control and he had to fulfill them, otherwise he'd get a potentially a bad reputation. He said I don't want ever to go through that again. It was great. I'm sorted for a while now. Yeah, they said it wasn't enjoyable, so I'm presuming delivering 110 a day. It kind of was a bit of fun.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean we used to hire. We were used to hire in catering. So you do an event for you know a fair amount for that day Considered, you know we would do you know hundreds of stuff out delivering you know 20. Our days were just a regular occurrence. For half the things We'd have the money we didn't for. You know we managed to turn over a million in COVID and throughout that year and it got us by a pay the bills. We didn't make anything out of it and it you know. But you know if we hadn't, we would have a different story, wouldn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we were you trained out of then.
Speaker 2:So just we got, we've been around the corner from here actually in Cardiff down there in Cardiff Bay for seven. I school your kitchen in there and everything. Yes, we got a few now dotted around the country, got a nice development kitchen in Bristol and then and some stuff around the country.
Speaker 3:But yeah, cardiff's on main hub for epic, yeah, yeah is there different Requirements from different people based in the different Geographical areas that they're in? Do you find it's not easier or harder to deal with people, but it's? You deal with different people in different ways based on where they are based.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm trying to put them the nicest the way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and absolutely I mean yeah, you know it is very interesting even now when we're in schools. You know we've got, like I said, we've got, you know, close on 86 schools and we do a primary menu, a secondary, a further education and the differences in the area is crazy, like you know. You'll get a what the school say we don't want roast dinner because the kids don't really like it, and then you'll do a menu without it and then you get a school say you can't it roast it. North kids will cry. You get that with.
Speaker 2:You know, when we see weddings and brides and grooms and all walks of life is the eating habits that are very regionalised. You know, I think Cardiff they love the Familiar comfort food. You know they're pushing through. We got, I think we've got a really great for Cardiff food scene coming through at the minute. It's really nice and Bristol's always had a bit more of an edge Going forward. I think you know. I think people in Bristol know what they like, know what they want and what they want and know how to eat and obviously a big Part of our epic of you know, customers custom base. They usually, before COVID, were London professionals that were from this area or Bristol or whatever, coming back being eating, you know, top-end food for whilst they're working there and they come back to mum and dad and get married and they actually want to bring their vibe and their, their cool things they found, or whatever, bow buns or whatever it was you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, the kind of seems interested food at the moment. I'll get your take on this. I think there's too many chains in Cardiff now. Yeah, do you think? There's a reason for that. You go to other areas maybe they're bigger and stuff but I generally find Cardiff is just chain after chain after chain. I'd like to see more local type of stuff going on.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I think it's always been the same. I think an independent is always a better Bet. I actually I actually got admiration for chains and that's that's probably chefs are going to turn their grave. Listen to this. Well, you know the processes. What you need to make a great hospitality business is to have really great training processes, purchasing deals and structure. The sad thing you know where. You know. I would like to see some supporter independence from the Welsh government or whatever, for more you know, more guidance and help, because you know, as creators, as chefs, we start these businesses and then we forget about all the stuff behind the scenes or they're making all the. You know. You know you need a member of staff. You just hire them. You're like, yeah, come on, then let's go. You know a chain like Wagamama, yeah, wagamama.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You're six weeks training before you're allowed to touch food. Yeah, if you're an independent, you need that chef to start because you haven't got a chef sat there night, exactly that's. You're not sending anyone anywhere for six weeks. So that's the the little bit. But you know, we can all safely say you go to a chain, you know what you're going to get most of the time depends what chain. But yeah, we all have independence, of course, because we want to see. You know food is about love, passion, creativity. We want to see that. We want to see someone's flair on a plate. I couldn't imagine ever being a chef in a restaurant being told what to cook. That I would have never done it, you know. It just wouldn't have been me. You know I put on the plate what I want to put and that's what I want to eat.
Speaker 1:I want someone's interpretation and I think that's probably coming from my point of view is that I want that flair in food and that's why I?
Speaker 1:quite like going to you know the restaurant like James summer in place of that, because this heart and soul of flair has gone into that type of food where I think I get a little bit disenchanted by the, by the chain, because it's the same old, same old, jim. Yeah, generally you do. The service is different because it's regimented and this is how they kind of do it. Don't get wrong, there's some chains their service is terrible and I think that's just the way they train them. But yeah, I think that's that's a big thing. For me is the kind of the flair of the chef themselves.
Speaker 1:Because I came from I saw that in Whitbread. Oh, nice, okay, when I was in university, when I before I started university, I worked in pubs and restaurants. I worked with bread and then became one of the youngest area managers to ever be in Whitbread when I graduated. But I worked in the kitchen.
Speaker 1:I one of the big things I did wherever I kind of went was I used to go to some of the ones who needed to turn in around me. I used to go to some of the ones who needed to turn in around, so I went up and torn turn when you know, sort of Down Swansea way, all over the kind of country, trying to help turn some of the not so great ones around. But I always used to. As soon as I went in there, I'd work with the chambermaids, I'd work in the kitchen just to see what was going wrong with that. You were told exactly what went on the plate and you had a spec sheet which said the steak goes at like sort of 11 o'clock on the plate, chips go over there, peas go over there. And it was exactly. Everything was to that kind of spec.
Speaker 2:Well, there's different, every bit there's no, flater cooking.
Speaker 1:You're just as always, you say a microwave technician.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I mean there's different. You know hospitality I genuinely like, love it. I can't think of anyone loving it more than I love it. Right. But you know you've got to see different areas of it. You know if someone's staying away for business, then they just want to eat. You know they're just eating, they're not bothered, they don't need to. You know their taste buds tingle that evening. It's just a, you know. So there's a time and a place for everything and I think there's room for everything. But of course, you know, for foodies like ourselves, you know we want to go and eat in them nice places, like James Summermans and people who have. We know that before we got there they've been stressing, rushing, you know. And technically, you know, if you want to eat out Now with all the, you know the stuff you can get in marxies and waitrose and we could do nice things at home, right. So, like you know cooking, even easy, easy food, you want stuff that you can't do at home.
Speaker 2:So like that's what you want to go out. You want to a thing that how did they just do that? Or you know the flavor on that's amazing.
Speaker 3:So that's what you want to see can I go back to the wagamama thing and just bear with me. You said you know there is a process to follow, and all that as a business owner and you've mentioned the word I'm going to say half a dozen times as at least creative. So you need time and space To go away and come up with ideas as as the your main role. However, as a business owner, you have to wear many hats, and we've noticed it here about our carpet laying a few weeks ago. We can go into that later. But how do you do that as a business owner? And I know you know when you said earlier you've got 600 and you'll have a management team and all that.
Speaker 3:But even when you start with Running a business on your own and it's you, and then you climb up and you have three people and five people and all that, how, as a business owner, do you cope with Having all those hats? Because, fine, you might delegate the hats to other people over time, but as you grow and grow, you still have, you still have hats and you still probably have many, many hats. How was? How do you deal with all of that? Because that's, the employed person probably doesn't see all the hats you. You wear as a business. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You. There's no way around it. And it's a great question because you've got to live it. You, if you, if you're gonna do so, whatever I've done for all my life, if I'm gonna do so, I commit to it and you have got to live and go. Right, I am doing this and you've got to have a drive. So you know, I've got many things that you know driver, got, reputation. I want to keep my reputation. Well, um, but mainly like I've got a. You know I've left great paying jobs to come and do this, so I had to.
Speaker 2:So at the start, it was about right after when as much money as I owned then and I got two girls you know to look after, and so, um, you know, I think you've got to live it. You've got a lot of business owners. I see them. I hear people and I'd like to, you know, eventually move into helping businesses once I've done my thing. But, like a Lot of people that, right, yeah, I'm gonna get this and get this person to do that website and they get this person to do that and and, and I'll have more time because I work for myself, I think you're gonna last no time at all, mate, because you have got. So my idea is you're right, you've got to have down time. So I probably until I literally sleep.
Speaker 2:I'm constantly thinking about the next idea because, yeah, you're right, in the day I've got things happening all the time and that's been for the length of running this business. So I'm all you know, you've got out that down time. Sometimes I get an hour in the day. I grab some lunch, walk around some. John Lewis is like my haven, just chill, it's calming and you can think of things. Then you, you think of an idea, rush back to the office and get it down on paper. But yeah, I have some weeks where I'm like I haven't thought of anything new for a minute and I'm just firefighting and that can bring you down as a business owner, totally take you to a different place. So that's really difficult. You've got a. You know I'm not one for having long breaks, or you know you know a bit away, but some days you do need to just sit there and go right what we're doing and that. I think that's the biggest challenge we all face as business owners, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, I think we're very poor at shutting off from the business. Oh yeah, I mean, and I Don't think it's, and only it's always healthy. No, don't go wrong, it's good to kind of keep doing, but it is good to and we and we try to do it more and more now is Just take a little bit of time of day and if it just go from, wander around the block here, yeah, or that little bit time out like we will now, that's a little bit like we cut the pool tip of the tarsif, yeah, like you, you'll be suddenly go right, I've been out this now for an hour and a half, so I'm a game of pool. Get the pool tip of bang.
Speaker 3:Just.
Speaker 1:But it's not, though. Is it like? Literally like I think it was a Friday. We were, we were flat-headed doing something. Both of us and you were like right, I can't do anymore, let's take a break from it, and Instead of going for that, walk around the block, we kind of do that. I mean, and I think you kind of do that I'm. I'm somebody you like. I Don't take a huge amount of breaks. You know, we do go away, and I'm trying to do more of it now. Yeah, because I think it's good and is healthy, and you know, I went away for a week this year, but we had stuff going on the business that I had to be contacted, didn't I?
Speaker 1:when normally, I can shut down every day I was have to do. Something was on calls now, which is not normal, and I Like kind of felt that I didn't give a hundred percent of my family when I was away. Then Jimmy, because of it which we've said needs to change, like next year, I don't want to be doing that. I want to like I'll pick up some messages, but you know generally, you know clear here, takes care of all my emails Generally, don't take the answer any my emails generally, and I'll just pick one stuff. But it is good to take a step away sometimes, like absolutely, and I'm I'm guilty.
Speaker 2:I need to do it more. I think you know there's different types of businesses. If you're running, you know, a lifestyle business, you know you know depends where your goals are, where your ambitions are. I've got a big dream, big ambitions. I've always been the same. I want to grow this to over a 50 million pound company within the next four years and we're on target to do that. I'm a superb nice yeah huge numbers.
Speaker 2:But if you know, if I'm committed to doing that, then I got to do it and but you can't have everything. You've got to sacrifice Something along the way and it's just trying to keep that balance of not dying before getting ill or not seeing your family or whatever. So, yeah, you know, if I you've got to just do what you've got to do really and you've got to enjoy what you're doing and just try your best really.
Speaker 3:And as much as we say about all the hats that we wear, they're all the plates that you have to spin as well and that's difficult and it takes a special person.
Speaker 3:Not that we're better than anyone else as a business owner, but you have to have probably a different mindset to be able to continue to spin all those plates, because the moment one of those plates stops spinning and falls has an impact on the rest of them itself. But for me maybe I'm a bit strange I love the speed of something and getting things done last minute and having the.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to say the stress.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the rush, the adrenaline of getting things done. I like being busy all the time. I don't like downtime.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 3:I know Garth will message me, you know, late at night and something. They come up with an idea and we're lucky enough as business owners and we said this to numerous people that we can bounce ideas off each other and stuff like that.
Speaker 3:Whereas a singular business owner may think this is a great idea and run with it and it'll cost both time and money and maybe have a negative impact. And that's that's what we've seen lately and over time is that the business owners don't they need to speak to other business owners. There needs to be a, not not a networking of oh, I need you to do my website, but they're to to bitch about having a bad day and and throw ideas out at people and kind of go, you don't want to be doing that, yeah, and also the thing of like you, you can say something to somebody and they'd be like, yeah, I had the same problem.
Speaker 1:Do you know what? This is how I dealt with it, and you're like I didn't think of that Exactly.
Speaker 1:And I think and that's something we want to develop, especially in South Wales to start with is that kind of safe haven, because there's a lot of kind of networking type groups that they would bring business owners together. But they generally now run by business owners who've actually really run businesses and been in, like you know, like I've run online retail companies, like I actually an online retail company in COVID. I've run a few different ones. Some of them have failed, some are still running, which I have equity in. I've had property. You know we, we've run. You know we, you know you've been 70, 80 years self employed. Now Some of those are probably yeah.
Speaker 1:Me something similar to me, and it's tough out there and people don't kind of realize and and we're lucky, like I said, because we can bounce ideas If we're like, yes, they, we had a win just day when we came in. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Wasn't particularly about business. I think it was just general lifewinds, wasn't he yesterday? We had to get over our system. When you're starting out, as you probably knew, I mean, you didn't have that, did you? And you can mone your friends, but if they don't run a business, they don't understand.
Speaker 2:It's again. We are in this conversation with the team yesterday, as we were talking about. You should only mone upwards Very true, and we're trying to get them to not mone.
Speaker 2:So we're all guilty of it. We can, all you know, because that has been one of my biggest challenges as a sole business owner. It's all very well getting your senior team and I've had some super senior people from some amazing experience in my team, you know, over the last few years. But even them, you know your bank's an idea. You know they will disagree, they will challenge you, but it doesn't feel, as you know, they're not making the decision with the head of their business. So yeah, I do miss. You know. I wish sometimes I'd started as a bit of a duo. A lot of catering companies are duos. In the big world it is. There's only a very slim few there on their own. So it's very, very niche what we do. But that duo does create that sort of you know there's usually one that excels in different departments.
Speaker 1:I can imagine one's a chef, one's a BDM. Yeah, Generally probably so that that isn't it. One's been on the floor in front of you, know the clients the others in the background doing all the development. All the chefs are like. I kind of get that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, super lonely place sometimes.
Speaker 3:Can I go back to you, said there the morning upwards, only what or how do you keep, or do you? You know we all have the shit days and we are moments in time how do you keep the happiness or the happy face in front of the staff and I know they're all remote and that's why I know it's not 600. But how do you, you know, keep that positivity or happiness going? Or do you let it down? Do people kind of see you it's a bad day, leave me alone? Or, as a business owner, how do you manage that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a tough one. Our industry is very emotional, so like I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so I don't like things being wrong, especially food service. So that is I'm trying to grow, like every time growing. You never stop learning in any walk of life. But as a business owner I'm trying to, you know, do things, go to meetings, go to you know other things, to grow my sort of way, because you know I always go back to I'm a chef, so I'm a bit of a pain sometimes.
Speaker 2:You know, back in the. You know I'm far removed from where I was in the kitchen. You know, chucking something around or being mad that there was a smudge on a plate and not that person anymore. But I've still got a long way to go and I've worked with even colleagues I've had recently in the last few years, their way they handle situations. I've learned a lot from take the emotion out of it, think, look at the situation, look at the problem. And I'm not always best at that. I'm aware of my heart on my sleeve, I'm passionate, but I'm getting there. You know I'm getting better. So just keeping you know I need to, I do keep.
Speaker 2:Hopefully my team would say I keep a good face in front of them. They can tell when I'm happy with something, but they know it's always just through the love of food. There's no ego, there's no, there's no ulterior motive. I don't need to be the big. You know, we're trying to do a flat line structure. We try and say you know, anyone can phone anyone. I think that's the important thing. I think if you can get carried away in your head of like unapproachable or, you know, sitting in your ivory tower and then your team just lose respect for you.
Speaker 2:But massive, really great questions. Because you know, when I was running the business and I was in on, the tools and my team were very different. You know we always really add each other's backs and you know when I grow to the, you know, like I said, nearly 600 staff. Now I have a mat, some team members. That's scary. So, like you know, sometimes I go to the kitchen. I don't know who a couple people are. That's new world for me. It's pretty scary. And they look at me like, and then you know someone might say oh, that's.
Speaker 2:Nick, and it's like, don't say that, like we're all just, you know. And then they get a bit Likeens people. Yeah, I mean, it gets a little bit, but I hate that. That's the biggest thing. Everyone who joins Clevrshass I want them to feel like they can just ring you or be at ease, because I love history and you know, I think back to like it must have come from the workhouses, the big, tall hats and the cane of the bosses who created this culture of don't talk to the owner, like he'll hit you or whatever, because I don't understand. You know, I really need everyone to be able to be fluent.
Speaker 2:I think every business owner if we're all honest, in every business, whatever size, you want your team to be able to say oh, you're an idiot, that was stupid and it not be. You know, of course it could be respectful, but it not be a problem Because we don't have all the answers. We're not perfect. You know. We own the business, but we don't all make right decisions every day. I love it. My marketing team sends me a poster and I just like, oh my God, I wouldn't even change any of that, that's the main. I mean like it's the happiest, it makes me the happiest ever. Or, you know, we win a job and I wasn't involved in it. It's the best feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is it's, but yeah, there's some really interesting points about it. I think the big one I'd like to see you're always learning and I always kind of see if you're not learning, you're dying. Yeah, I think as soon as you stop Learning in a business, you're arrogant enough to think you know it everything. Yeah, that is the end of your business, probably.
Speaker 2:I think so. Yeah, you know, there's a lot of people out there.
Speaker 1:I think we think they know it all, but we're constantly learning. I mean, all the time we're trying to evolve. You know, we're trying to be a bit different in in our industry, because it's a very old-fashioned industry average age is still, I think, 56, 57 in our industry okay. We've got a few years yet to then, but not many, not your few over 10 years. But I think. I think you've got to evolve in business, haven't? You absolutely got to change. You've got to keep moving because otherwise Nothing's gonna kind of change.
Speaker 2:It's just life in general. You know, talking about the food sitting card, if it's like it, you know we're talking. I was talking to some of my friends the other day. We think that every restaurant got a shelf life, you know, I think, five years. I think you've got to change. You got a you know, redevelop New offer. The world moves fast now, doesn't it, yeah, so you know you've got to be with it.
Speaker 1:No, it doesn't. And you do see some kind of Some of the chains who don't redevelop. Actually, I see a good example of that and I'll see it on you. It's TJ Friday's drumming. Like I always loved each other, I kind of grew up with that kind of brand, but the One of the ones in Cardiff just gets it wrong every time, like you going back there.
Speaker 3:Yeah they're gonna get it right yeah they get wrong every time?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but nothing changes in the deck or doesn't change the way everyone I kind of customers who is what?
Speaker 2:doesn't change in there. That's the bits of business I love Delving into why businesses work, what they do and how, because you look at TJ Friday's and like actually their menus pretty good. Yes, if they. I always think you know, because this time I'm good. I hope there's no cave and people listening because they're gonna shoot me down, but I love to harvest a brand right.
Speaker 1:I always think, I always think so card.
Speaker 2:Well, I always think right, I think the process, the idea, the menu, the salabar, I think loads of people love it, but the food's rubbish most of the time. It is right. I Always think about these chains. If they, if we stuck like really great, passionate chefs in there, you would have a recipe for luck success. Excuse the pun, but I imagine harvest have run by the best chef in Cardiff. I mean you'd be killing it because it's amazing, the, the actual, the ideas from probably head office development.
Speaker 2:When I read the menu, I'm like, yeah, I could be good. I know it's not gonna be that, I know it's not gonna be the tenderest chicken or I know the Mixed grill isn't gonna be the best steak from a farming escort, but imagine it was exactly love to have done that, like I'd love to have done. You know, walked up to the salabar and I've got Otterlinge style salads and I've got fresh salabar and I've got and you know it would be amazing. So, yeah, that sort of excites me. So, tgis, I think it's a shame because it has got potential. Oh, 100%. But it's just all about Scale, scalability, processes. You know, wrong products on the tip, they're always sticky, the tables are always sticky, and so I Associated with it, yeah and we always have the same problem with break wheels.
Speaker 1:at the same time they were part I don't whether you saw part of it, but they were before and it all came down to using the cleaning fluid on those tables and we were told by the guys who's come in from the cleaning Come and say that this, this would literally take the lacquer off the table. So they're gonna get sticky. No one ever did anything about it. No like well, we still keep using that cleanest solution. Yeah, why yeah?
Speaker 2:I.
Speaker 1:Brought it up once to me. I was like why are we doing that? Why are we not changing that?
Speaker 2:I Think the massive part of it in hospitality is the people we have in hospitality, you know, no, you know there's some absolute superstars. But in other countries you know, america, france is seen as a career and you know, in Britain it seemed as a job if you haven't got another job, and that's the sad thing really, and it's got better over the years, I think, you know. But there are still people who just, you know, just do that work because they're not doing anything else. And I Can't think of a more skill. Well, of course there is, but it's a skilled, you know, intuitive, really service led job which you need to be Really tactile to be in, and sometimes we just put people in the wrong places, absolutely. You know, we talk about it all the time in clever chef, we Strategically position our team is no, I did it.
Speaker 2:One of my favorite films is the founder. I love that film. It's just brilliant, perfect, Absolutely perfect, how they draw out the kitchen in the tennis courts. But it's they hit the nail on the head. If you've got the wrong person on the wrong place, the wrong host, the wrong person on the tail, the wrong person making cocktails, you've got a recipe for disaster. But if you mix it around, it could work.
Speaker 1:So yeah. I think, you apply that to virtually all business, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, you know if, if you've got the person who should be customer facing not customer facing the person customers facing should actually be the one doing the admin. Yeah, because that's where their strength is, that's where it's a recipe for disaster, isn't it?
Speaker 2:People get bored. So if you're doing a role, you know if you've got a role is boring, like need to, you know, check that out and like mix them up, do something different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I was something that One of the bread I brought in was. When a new starter starts At any sort of management level, they have to work in every area of the business. Yeah, they have to work with the chambermaids, they have to be changing rooms, they have to work on reception, they have to work in the kitchen, they have to do a night porter one as well, yeah, yeah, because you need to understand every facet of the job and actually understand what the people who are doing those jobs for you Feel, like I'm what it's like for them to do it.
Speaker 2:Of course there's everyone thinks they're rules the hardest and they everyone thinks they're also most important. But, um, yeah, if you definitely, if you understand it, um, definitely, it's a really good idea.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we usually finish up by saying you know what's next. But so when you get to 50 million, you're exiting, you're buying into Harvester and you're gonna change all the chains.
Speaker 2:I yeah, well, I probably know if, if you know, in the future I got out of this business, I'm probably do something different to be fair, probably.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you think?
Speaker 2:you can come back to build consultancy stuff and yeah, probably I want to have a little bit of a dabble in property. Maybe or just don't know something I like I could, you know, use your creativity in other ways and interior design someone like that. I don't know, might never happen. I do love the food industry and service too much, but uh, we'll see. It's a tough gig.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is Great. Thanks, Nick no way.
Speaker 3:Thanks very much. It was really very good.
Speaker 1:See you next time.
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